05 BF low speed and RPM sputter and pop

25518 Views 20 Replies 8 Participants Last post by smooth, Feb 15, 2010

bcallihan

Discussion Starter · Feb 12, 2010

Hey guys, fairly new to the forum (Great place BTW :rock

and need some input. My 05 BF 650 is dual carbed, and at low speed and RPM I'm getting sputtering and backfiring. When I give it more throttle the popping and sputtering goes away and it runs perfectly. I just had the carbs rebuilt and put a new air cleaner on. Also new plugs with no luck. I noticed there's some of you with newer EFI's doing the same thing. I'm wandering if there's something in the carbs that's causing this or if there's something else going on. Any input would be greatly appreciated

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

Shumate650

· #2 · Feb 12, 2010

welcome to the forum. i have an 08 650 that did the exact same thing from the day i bought it. it drove me crazy. some guys on here told me to buy two #4 washers and shim the needles in the carbs. i did it and it worked. it completely took the low speed miss out of it and it actually ran better. doing this richens it up a little bit. the spitting and sputtering is because it is running lean that explains why it quits when you give it more gas. u can pick these washers up at your local hardware store. brass of stainless steal is doesnt matter. it is a fairly easy job to perform. hope it helps.

brian

kawipilot

· #3 · Feb 13, 2010

up one size on pilot jets

Painterx2

· #4 · Feb 13, 2010

both of you are correct and you want to also turn the fuel mix screw out about 2.5 to 3 turns.but you may not have to.... try the washers first then jets but the washers by themselfes should work

bcallihan

Discussion Starter · #5 · Feb 13, 2010

Thanks for the input guys, I'm just wandering if the new jet needles from the rebuild kit I put in it were say 1/32 or so longer than the original :hmm:. Therefore making it run lean. Anyway, I will try the pilot screw adjustment again and also the shim trick (or original needles) this week and let you guys know how it works.Thanks again.

Painterx2

· #6 · Feb 13, 2010

dyno junk yes put factory needles in with #4 washers

kawipilot

· #7 · Feb 13, 2010

in my opinion shim and needle position just doesnt affect it that down low in the throttle position, specially with CV carbs. Pilot screws do work but you have to get them way out, 3 1/2 to 4 turns out. and then its slightly rich when fully warm, pilot jets is the ticket

bcallihan

Discussion Starter · #8 · Feb 13, 2010 (Edited)

With the mixture screw turned out that far (3 to 4 turns), wouldn't it create other problems with the way it ran or not. And about the bigger pilot jet, is that factory bought or after market.

kawipilot

· #9 · Feb 13, 2010

no, turn them 4 turns out and the problem instantly goes away, but it does seem to get a little rich when fully warmed up. I did 3 1/2 out and it pops ever so slightly untill fully warm.
altitude will affet you you, whats your altitude ?
You can try it, maybe you can get away without changing jets

Painterx2

· #10 · Feb 14, 2010

kawipilot said:
in my opinion shim and needle position just doesnt affect it that down low in the throttle position, specially with CV carbs. Pilot screws do work but you have to get them way out, 3 1/2 to 4 turns out. and then its slightly rich when fully warm, pilot jets is the ticket

you have alot to learn my friend

kawipilot

· #11 · Feb 14, 2010

err ok

The air screw is most effective between idle through 1/8 throttle.
The pilot (slow) jet is most effective between 1/8 through 1/4 throttle.
The slide valve is most effective between 1/8 through 1/2 throttle
The jet needle is most effective between 1/4 through 3/4 throttle.
The main jet is most effective between 3/4 through wide-open throttle.

the brutes problem is 1/8 trough 1/4

kawipilot

· #12 · Feb 14, 2010

heres a good read for people like me who have a lot to learn

CV Carb Tuning Procedures

w_pinkerton

· #13 · Feb 14, 2010

i thought after 3 turns the pilot screw doesn't have an effect anymore. my prairie does the same thing and after 3 turns, it still does it. so i turned it back to 2.5 and will try shimming the needles...

Camo Joe

· #14 · Feb 14, 2010 (Edited)

Carb Class................

Welcome to class guys..............get ready to learn.............here you go...........

First off, there's 2 basic fuel related problems. You either have a rich mixture, or a lean mixture.

A rich mixture is caused by too much fuel compared to the amount of air being used during combustion. Rich conditions can be detected by the engine spitting and sputtering, blurbling, or acting like a rev limiter, rapidly losing and regaining power. In severely rich conditions, you may be seeing black smoke coming from the exhaust. The black smoke you see is actually raw fuel that is not being burnt and is being wasted. By looking at the spark plug, a rich condition can be detected by a black, sooty plug.

A lean mixture is caused by too little fuel compared to the amount of air being used during combustion. Lean conditions can be detected by the engine losing power, yet retaining it's engine speed. For instance, the engine sounds to be accelerating to higher RPMs, yet feels as if it has no power. By looking at the spark plug, a lean condition can be detected by a white, blistered plug.

Secondly, there are 3 basic carburetor circuits: Pilot Circuit, Mid-range Circuit, and Main Circuit. These 3 carburetor circuits can be troubleshooted by knowing the throttle opening they control.

The Pilot circuit is responsible for throttle openings from Idle (0 throttle) - around 1/4 throttle. This circuit consists of pilot air jet(s), the pilot fuel jet(s), a pilot screw (either fuel or air screw), and pilot ports inside the carburetor throat (a.k.a. Venturi).

There are 2 types of pilot screws: a fuel screw and an air screw.

The fuel screw is located on the engine side of the throttle slide in the carb, and controls the amount of fuel that is drawn into the Venturi by the pilot ports. By turning the fuel screw out, you are allowing more fuel to pass the screw, effectively richening the mixture. By turning the screw in, you are restricing fuel, effectively leaning the mixture. Another way to determine whether it is an air or fuel screw is that a fuel screw has a rubber o-ring to keep air from entering the pilot circuit around the screw.

The air screw is located on the airbox side of the throttle slide in the carb, and controls the amount of air that is drawn into the Venturi by the pilot ports. By turning the air screw out, you are allowing more air to pass the screw, effectively leaning the mixture. By turning the air screw in, you are restricing air, effectively enrichening the mixture.

The air jets are hardly ever changed, so we won't go over that. The pilot fuel jet(s) can be changed to bigger (richer) or smaller (leaner), depending upon your problem. A good rule of thumb to use is that if you have to adjust the pilot screw more than two turns either way if it's stock setting, then you need to accomodate by changing the pilot air or pilot fuel jets accordingly.

Remember, the Pilot Circuit is only effective from 0 throttle to around 1/4 throttle. It still functions during the rest of the throttle positions, but it's effect is minimal, and goes un-noticed.

The Mid-range circuit is responsible for throttle openings from 1/4 throttle - 3/4 throttle.

This circuit is controlled by 2 things: the Jet Needle, and Needle Jet (a.k.a. the Main Jet Holder).

The Jet Needle, or needle as many call it, is attatched to the throttle slide, and drops into the Needle Jet. All needles are tapered. Either the Jet Needle is adjustable or it is not. If there are more than 1 grooves for the needle clip to sit in, then it is adjustable. By raising the clip on the needle, you are allowing the needle to sit deeper into the needle jet, which restricts fuel, effectively leaning the mixture. By lowering the clip on the needle, you are raising the needle out of the needle jet, which allows more fuel to pass, effectively enrichening the mixture.

When the slide raises, it raises the needle out of the needle jet, allowing fuel to pass by the needle and into the Venturi. This is where needle taper comes into play. Unless you are extremely fine tuning the carb, you don't need to worry about taper. You change which part of the taper is in the needle jet by the position of the clip.

Remember, the Mid-range circuit is only effective from 1/4 throttle - 3/4 throttle. None of the other circuits have a drastic effect on this circuit, so if your problem is in the mid-range circuit, then it can't be the main jet or the pilot jet.

The Main circuit is responsible for throttle openings from 3/4 throttle - Wide Open Throttle (you'll see me refer to this at WOT later on).

This circuit is controlled by 2 things: the Main Jet, and the main air jet. The Main Jet is the #1 thing that people change in a carburetor when it comes to tuning them. This is often a big mistake, as it only controls 3/4 - WOT, and NOTHING ELSE. Remember that. A larger main jet will allow more fuel to pass through it, effectively enrichening the mixture. A smaller main jet will restrict fuel, effective leaning the mixture. With the main air jet, it allows air to premix with fuel as it goes up into the Venturi.

The Main Jet only functions at 100% when the slide is open and the jet needle is pulled completely out of the needle jet. At this time, the only thing restricting fuel flow into the Venturi is the size of the Main Jet.

Now for tuning.

If you read above, you should know the difference in feel of rich and lean mixtures. By knowing at what throttle opening the problem is occuring at, you can figure out what circuit the problem is occuring at.

If it's the pilot circuit, there are 3 basic ways to tune the circuit. You can adjust the pilot screw, change the pilot air jet, or change the pilot jet.

Adjusting the pilot screw is simple. With the engine running at idle, warmed up to normal operating temps, turn the screw in until it starts to idle rough, then turn the screw out until it starts to idle rough, then turn the screw so it's between those two extremes. To check the position of the screw, you can count the number of turns as you turn the screw in until it seats SOFTLY with the carb body. Reason I capitalized SOFTLY is that the screws (especially the fuel screws) are easily damaged if over tightened. So screw them in until they SOFTLY seat the carb body. Compare your counted number of turns to soft seat and compare it to stock settings (stock settings are determined by counting turns until soft seat before you do any adjustments whatsoever). Again, if you had to turn the screw more than 2 turns either way, you need to change pilot jets (air or fuel) accordingly.

In the mid-range circuit, there are 2 basic ways to tune the circuit. You can adjust the jet needle, or change the needle jet. Raising the clip will lower the needle, leaning the mid-range. Lowering the clip will raise the needle, enrichening the mid-range. You can also change the needle jet, but only if your jet needle adjustments make no difference in the way the mid-range circuit operated. If you are running lean on the mid-range, and you've raised the needle as far as it will go and it doesn't get any better, then you should go up in the needle jet size. Many carb manufactures don't have different sized needle jets, so the aftermarket may offer them, or they may not.

In the main circuit, there are 2 basic ways to tune the circuit. You can change the main jet, or change the main air jet. Changing to a larger main jet will effectively enrichen the circuit. Changing to a smaller main jet will effectively lean the circuit. You can determine which you need to do by first determining whether you are rich or lean. Changing main air jets, again, is for very fine tuning. Once you have the main circuit functioning properly, you shouldn't have to worry about the main air jet, because the air for the circuit is mostly provided by the air passing through the Venturi. On many carbs, the main air jet is not changeable. They may be pressed in.

So there you have it. I basically touched base with carburetor internals and how to adjust them to tune the carb. Every brand carburetor has different ways of accomplishing the same main goal of every carburetor. That goal is to precisely and efficiently mix air and fuel in the right ratios for efficient engine operation. This efficient operation comes from complete combustion, which cannot occur if you are too rich. Whether Mikuni, Keihin, or whatever, they all do the same thing, just in different ways. Hopefully this will help some of you to understand the functions of the carburetors internals.

This will help also.............

http://www.4strokes.com/tech/howtojet.asp

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Reactions: 1

Shumate650

· #15 · Feb 14, 2010

i played with different settings on the air fuel screws for a week. i could get the miss to go away but i lost alot of bottom end power at take off. shim the needles! it will work

bcallihan

Discussion Starter · #16 · Feb 14, 2010

Hey thanks for all posts guys. Wow, there's some informitive stuff in here:notworthy:. I think I have a starting point now and can get this narrowed down.

Painterx2

· #17 · Feb 14, 2010

kawipilot said:
err ok

The air screw is most effective between idle through 1/8 throttle.
The pilot (slow) jet is most effective between 1/8 through 1/4 throttle.
The slide valve is most effective between 1/8 through 1/2 throttle
The jet needle is most effective between 1/4 through 3/4 throttle.
The main jet is most effective between 3/4 through wide-open throttle.

the brutes problem is 1/8 trough 1/4

WOW I'm so glad you joined.....now I know how it works:huh::huh::huh:

smooth

· #18 · Feb 15, 2010

I am going to try that on mine #4 washers on my 08 650 BF.I never heard of doing that before

w_pinkerton

· #19 · Feb 15, 2010

this will help give you an idea of how to do it. :tup:

How To: Shim Carb Needle

hndlbarmonkey

· #20 · Feb 15, 2010

you risk the screws falling out, turning them that far out.

2-1/2 to 3 is really the max

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